Horstmann Economy 7

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by RikB1314, Jan 18, 2022.

  1. RikB1314

    RikB1314 New Member

    So the unit is clearly not working as it should and you think that likely blame is that three different trademen can't screw a wire to a terminal? Or am I misundertanding what you are saying??
     
  2. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    As I tried to say, it keeps happening because you are using PLUMBERS to make ELECTRICAL connections!
    90% of the time there isnt a problem. In your situation, I would get your plumber back to replace the element at his expense. Then pay for an electrician to do the difficult part.

    Its not because your timer went bang!!!

    No. The overheat device only is worried about the temperature of the water.
     
  3. jonathanc

    jonathanc Screwfix Select

    Well someone made a hash of it given the burnt neutral!
     
  4. RikB1314

    RikB1314 New Member

    Thanks guys....the unit didn't need replacing (yet!)...although not working as it should...and yes a new cable, cleaned up terminal (quite a bit it sandpapering going on) and crimp terminals indeed seemed to to the trick. You were all correct...I was never arguing just trying to understand it better!!
    Anyway, I am not 100% that the crimp connectors HAVE been crimped (don't suppose he had that tool with him??) and he has cut away part of the palstic case as he says he prefers it on the left side!! He has ignored the existing notch and widened this notch to be a rather large cut-out!
    Is this common or is this a work around after he had connected the thermostat and realised he hadn't left enough cable....or something like that!!?

    See the attached pic......which was taken from an angle. You can see the original plastic cable clamp which is actually at around 6 o'clock where the orginal notch would have been. The cap screw/nut is at 9 o'clock as normal.
    Anyway one thing after another!! - is this normal?? Anyway else 'prefer to do it like this'?? What if, like my older one,the cap had been steel and he could easily cut it away?????
     
  5. RikB1314

    RikB1314 New Member

    Oops.....pic is here!
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    No picture…

    PS. Was this the plumber, or an electrician?
     
  7. RikB1314

    RikB1314 New Member

    Pic added just after. No this was defiitely electrician.I had done every suggested.....cleaned terminals, said same as you guys about this, tested element which was fine (thankfully) but thermostat bust. Fitted new cable as I wabted him to.....only problem is this hack!!??
     
  8. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    The cable is meant to be in the place provided.
    Do you see that item, bottom of the picture?
    It’s called a cable clamp. It’s there to stop the cable bring pulled out of the immersion if the cable gets pulled.
    The inner conductors, in their pvc sheaths, must be inside the cover, not hanging in the breeze.

    Where do you find these people?
     
    Teki and Ollie_Mate like this.
  9. jonathanc

    jonathanc Screwfix Select

    hack, bodge, god knowns but i cannot believe any professional electrician would leave it like that...
     
  10. RikB1314

    RikB1314 New Member

    On the cable clamp...yes, understood......I mentioned it in original message. As for your other comments and jonathanc's comment - thought as much!! I have an idea that rather than him 'preferring to
    do it that way' (!), he had wired it all up (withoiut the thermostat in situ) then realised he hadn't left enough room to go into the correct cable route!! TBH the pic makes it look worse than it is....but homestly was a bit bemused when I seem him taking his snips to the plastic cap!!!
     
  11. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    It is wrong in many ways. Number 1 - any passing child could put a fviunger in that gap. As you know, there are open live wires just there.

    Then there are about 3 other non-compliances.
     
  12. RikB1314

    RikB1314 New Member

    Thanks again....I had got this guy to do quite a lot around the flat.....might want to get it all tested out!! : )
     
  13. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    He should be testing. How could he certify the work he has done otherwise.

    PS. Again, can I ask where you are finding these so called trades people!
     
  14. RikB1314

    RikB1314 New Member

    The plumbers have all been excellent. I know that maybe they have thought they have screwed wires to the terminal securely - but it not being done to the same standard as an electrician (cleaning terminals/crimping wires etc), but really no complaints. I have had two who are fast clean and tidy and reasonable.
    The electrician hasn't signed off/certified anything. I have received quotes/invoices, but no documentation I don't think? He is known to me and learned his trade abroad. I believe he has had the qualifications transferred to UK body?? I would hope that he had tested everything.
     
  15. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    That is one of the roughest bodge jobs I have ever seen and I have seen a lot.

    Idiots.
     
  16. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    I have just read this post again and realised that you have said it is wired up without a thermostat.

    DO NOT USE THE IMMERSION HEATER, SOMEONE MAY BE SEVERELY INJURED, DISFIGURED FOR LIFE OR MAYBE EVEN KILLED.

    Utter and complete idiots.
     
  17. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    I will repeat myself again:

    Do not use your immersion heater until it has reinstalled by a competent person, it is a genuine danger to anyone in your home due to the risks of scalding and electric shock.
     
  18. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    As well as the acute risk of scalding from the hot water at the taps, there is also the possible danger of the cold water header tank above the hot water cylinder boiling and splitting, resulting in scalding water crashing through a ceiling and killing someone as happened to this baby whilst sleeping in her cot and the lady in Cornwall also mentioned in the BBC news report:
    BBC NEWS | England | Somerset | Baby death blamed on government

    You do not have the faintest idea of what needs to be done and you are employing idiots who are totally incapable of doing the right thing, placing yourself and anyone in your home in acute danger.
     
  19. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    This is what can happen without a working thermostat.

    BBC NEWS | England | Somerset | Focus on baby death safety checks


    [​IMG]
    Rhianna Hardie suffered 95% burns in the incident
    The inquest on a baby scalded to death in her cot was told 3.5 million homes with similar thermostats could need safety checks.

    A health and safety inspector warned the government in 2002 of the dangers when a woman was similarly burned.

    Coroner Michael Rose said he would writing to the government following the death of ten-month-old Rhianna Hardie.

    Rhianna suffered 95% burns at her Taunton home when the water tank burst drenching her as she lay in her cot.

    Mr Rose has urged anyone with a boiler with an outmoded thermostat to check their heating system for a potentially fatal fault.

    The faulty thermostat in an immersion heater failed causing water in an airing cupboard tank to overheat.

    See how the accident happened

    The inquest heard how the water eventually boiled, forcing through a safety vent pipe into the plastic cold water tank in the loft.

    The plastic tank began to fill up with water close to boiling point.

    The plastic water tank was capable of holding 50 gallons of water rated at maximum temperature of 25C.

    Current safety standards say the loft tank should be able to hold boiling water for up to 500 hours, if fitted correctly.

    The inquest was told the tank at the Hardies' home had been mounted on an old door during modernisation work in 1973 and part of the tank was overhanging.



    [​IMG]
    The ruptured tank was shown to the inquest
    Later in the night the tank ruptured sending gallons of scalding hot water pouring through the ceiling and into the bedroom where Rhianna was asleep.

    Her father suffered burns to his hands and arms as he tried to lift his daughter from her cot.

    The baby was taken to hospital in the early hours of 19 November 2006 but died a month later.

    The inquest jury at Taunton was told of a Health and Safety Executive (HSE) investigation into a similar incident at Penzance, Cornwall, in May 2002.

    Sharon Minister, aged 30, suffered 45% burns when scalding water poured through her ceiling as she slept.

    Her death in hospital from septicaemia was judged to have been accidental.

    In April 2004 the British Standard Institute said any repairs, replacement or new installation of immersion heaters should use models which had a safety trip.



    [​IMG]
    THERMOSTAT WARNING SIGNS
    Excessively hot water coming out of hot water taps
    Excessive noise or bubbling noise from hot water cylinder
    Hot water coming out of cold water taps
    Steam or condensation in the loft
    But this new standard did not apply retrospectively so it was not necessary to replace old-style immersion heaters.

    Danny Davis, technical officer for the Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineers, said a competent person inspecting a heating system would look at the whole system to examine the effect of a single component failing.

    "For most people with gas central heating the immersion heater is something that would only get switched on if the main boiler was to fail as a handy way of getting hot water.

    "However in an older installation where the immersion heater is the only way of heating water then it should be checked regularly in the same way you would have your car serviced."

    The HSE issued a safety alert to raise awareness of the "rare but potentially serious" scalding risk in domestic hot water systems using an electric immersion heater in conjunction with a plastic storage tank in the loft.

    It said the loft tanks must be properly mounted on an adequate supporting base which is level, larger than the bottom area of the tank and made of marine-grade plywood.

    It recommends a safety cut out device, independent of the immersion heater thermostat, to limit the water temperature to a safe level should the thermostat fail.

    The inquest was told the fault which ultimately lead to Rhianna's death could affect up to 3.5m other homes in the UK.

    The Local Government Association (LGA) has issued advice to councils urging tenants, homeowners and landlords to look for telltale signs of faults with hot water tanks.

    The guidance warns that particular consideration should be given to hot water systems more than 10 years old.



    SEQUENCE OF EVENTS
    [​IMG]
    1 Thermostat fails in on position
    2 Boiling water is forced into roof tank
    3 Thermal circulation causes cold water from roof tank to flow into bottom of copper cylinder
    4 Eventually water in loft tank is replaced with scalding hot water
    5 Tank splits and boiling water pours through ceiling
     
  20. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    I do not know of any process that allows that. The competent person schemes have their qualification requirements and I do not recall seeing a “get out of jail” pass if an applicant has a certificate from a Romanian source.(or elsewhere).

    If he is a member of a CPS he should be listed here:
    https://www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk/
     

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