Wiring Outside Lights

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Seelda, Jan 21, 2022.

  1. Seelda

    Seelda New Member

    I want to put a couple of 230V lights on a garden wall, that is at right angles to the semi detached house, and a maximum of 3m from the house and 1.6m high. All without any visible wiring. Currently, the bricks in the wall are in a poor condition so I want to render it after the wiring has been installed. My current thinking is:
    Chase out the wall for 20mm PVC conduit, or water pipe, down the wall and 600mm underground, then beneath a flagged patio and through the house wall,via conduit below the DPC. Sink two PVC BESA boxes in the wall, and then render. Wire, using two lengths of 1.5mm 3-core BS8436 from lights to a metal box fixed to the internal house wall under the ground floor, convert to 2.5mm T&E using terminal blocks or Wago's. Feed the 2.5mm spur from a switched fused connection unit in the room above on the ground floor RCD protected ring final.
    Why am I planning BS8436 rather than SWA? Because I think it will pull through the conduit easier and still provide an earthed covering. I assume that SWA could be buried directly under the render and patio but couldn't be replaced if subsequently damaged.
    I'm unsure how to connect the BS8436 shield to earth.
    What would you do differently?
     
  2. CeSparky1

    CeSparky1 Active Member

    I think I would if possible put it on a separate circuit rcbo so it wont affect any other circuit, however if the run is too difficult I would put a fcu next to socket (Make sure socket is on a ring rather than a spur). I would then drill straight through wall to a wiska box, put in a kinetic unit so the lights can be turned on and off from a wireless switch. Then SWA to a wiska box just above ground level on the wall then something like nyy cable in metal earthed conduit from behind wiska box to behind light..

    Not sure if BS8436 is recommended for buried in the ground, might require twin wall ducting, hence why I would use SWA to a box above ground then on to light. If you are DIY'r make sure you talk to a sparky as it will need to be tested especially your rcd.
     
  3. Seelda

    Seelda New Member

    Thanks CeSparky1.
    I forgot to mention, although competent, I am aware of the regs and will be getting an electrician to install and connect the wiring. And issue a certificate. I was just pondering the best way to tackle the job. Yes, twin wall ducting seems better for underground. Not familiar with NYY cable. I'll look it up. Is metal conduit ok to be in contact with render? Thinking of. Silicone render (K-rend or similar).
    Thanks!
     
  4. CeSparky1

    CeSparky1 Active Member

    Competent is a legal term meaning qualified and experienced, lots of people get confused thinking that they can "self certify" themselves as competent, a good benchmark of competent would be to see if you would be accepted into a competent persons scheme, for this you need NVQ 3 including AM2 and latest regs. If you have that and experience working under or as an electrician then you are competent.. Sorry its a bug bear of mine so no offence if you are competent or even if you are not, its a very poor word that is used in the electrical industry.

    NYY (can also be known as high tuff) is basically SWA without the steal wired armour, it provides quite good impact resistance although if in metal conduit probably just H05 or H07 would also be ok.. Metal conduit not a problem to be in contact with render, think about it, metal conduit is on outside buildings all the time and the saddles are metal and they are in contact with render..

    There are lots of acceptable ways of doing this, best thing would be to find a decent sparks and have a chat with him as at the end of the day that spark is going to be the one that will put their name to it so should be done how they want (Within reason)..
     
  5. Seelda

    Seelda New Member

     
  6. Seelda

    Seelda New Member

    I understand where you're coming from with regards to competent. I'm an engineer. BSc in electronic computer systems (electronics and software) with 40 years designing test systems for a British military aircraft manufacturer. These include single phase, 3-phase commercial supplies, 200V AC and DC aircraft supplies. The last 7 years EMC testing Typhoon. I don't like the public's vision that an engineer is always a man, covered in oil who rips you off when they fix your car/washer/boiler etc.
    I've re-wired 2 houses in my time and to a much higher standard than the electrician that my kitchen fitter sub contracted to.
    I can understand the IET wiring regulations, I just lack practical experiences with something to like this. I want to know the various ways it can be done so that I can understand and discuss the choices that my electrician makes.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2022
  7. Comlec

    Comlec Screwfix Select

    @CeSparky1 - keep up at the back there! :)

    The IET Current Regs talk of Skilled persons rather than competent

    From the current edition (Definitions Part 2)

    Skilled person (electrically). Person who possesses, as appropriate to the nature of the electrical work to be undertaken, adequate education, training and practical skills, and who is able to perceive risks and avoid hazards which electricity can create.
    NOTE 1: The term “(electrically)” is assumed to be present where the term 'skilled person' is used throughout BS 7671.
    NOTE 2: Regulation 16 of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 requires persons to be competent to prevent danger and injury. The HSE publication HSR25 provides guidance on this.


    But then goes on to use 'competent' throughout the book.
    For example
    651.5 The periodic inspection and testing shall be carried out by one or more skilled persons competent in such work

    Confused? I suppose it is the purpose of the regs:)
     
  8. CeSparky1

    CeSparky1 Active Member

    Haha yeah well its written by the IET, get ready to be shafted for another load of money when Ammendment 2 comes out, 99% exactly the same but you need to buy a whole new set of books cause they changed the colour.

    I wonder if we will be part of a Skilled Persons Scheme rather than Competent Persons Scheme lol.
     
  9. Comlec

    Comlec Screwfix Select

    Not if you have a digital subscription - The IET Shop :)
     
  10. Seelda

    Seelda New Member

    Difficult to convey skills an competencies online. Experience may be just time served rather than on the tools. I do know some well qualified people who can't tie their own shoelaces. Safety and good workmanship is drummed into us where I work because if the product fails then many people die . Which is strange because the whole point of the product is to deliver things that kill. Hopefully, just the bad guys.
     
  11. CeSparky1

    CeSparky1 Active Member

    Haha an even better scam, instead of paying one off fee for the book pay a yearly fee..
     
  12. Comlec

    Comlec Screwfix Select

    Not really a scam. I have a Silver Plus package and with member discount it still comes out less than the cost of a one day course.
    All downloaded on an iPad for ease of access on site.
    Read a few guidance notes and that's your CPD for the EAS (CPS) sorted for the year come your next assessment.
     
  13. CeSparky1

    CeSparky1 Active Member

    So thats what £173 a year for the IET membership, plus £179 a year -25% so £134 a year.. All in £307 per year.. What a bargain..

    Against buying at CEF, So what BS7671 £78, Onsite guide £25

    Then I mean the others like electricians guide to building regs not gunna change much, nor will testing or bonding and earthing etc, so you really dont need to buy them very often. even if you do, they are only what £25 each. But ok lets entertain it, each book about £27 so £216, + £22 for building regs guide, + £33 for design guide.

    So that makes a total of £374 and will last you at 4 years, compared to your £307 per year, over 4 yrs £1228.. Yep bargain sign me up.. How many electricians own all the guidance books? I own BS7671, onsite guide, building regs guide and guidance note 8. When they change I will not buy a new building regs guide or guidance note 8, I will however buy bonding and earthing and I will buy BS7671 and onsite guide..

    I say its a scam cause you look at the cost of the books for gas safe, all the books together are about £50.. I do use my books as I seem to get some odd jobs but I can totally see for the average domestic sparks they might not touch the books in a year and I would not say they are a bad sparks for not touching the books for a year.. Half the time I just use them to make sure I am correct which 95% of the time I am or to prove to a customer why something needs to be done so they know I am not just trying to scam them compared to the cowboy sparky who says "nah you don't need that"
     
  14. Comlec

    Comlec Screwfix Select

    The cost of six days parking in Westminster. It is all about perspective and choice.
    A service which has no value to a potential consumer that they have no requirement to purchase is not a scam.
    I wasn’t making any recommendations just pointing out a product I find useful.
     
    Bazza-spark likes this.
  15. elecstick

    elecstick Screwfix Select

    Always look on the piratebay or google "docname free pdf", surprise surprise
     
  16. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    The reason they have to be vague is there are so many different types of sparks out there, and generations of sparks - at a recent bacon roll day down the wholesalers the 6 of us present (all CPS members) worked out none of us would currently be eligible to join, we've all been in the trade at least 20 years, none of us had the NVQ 3 and the oldest who's 68 admitted he doesn't have a single qualification, he apprenticed to his dad and joined the NIC way back in the early 70's and been in ever since (and he's a better spark than the rest of us)! Then a young lad rocked up and joined the conversation, he's got the whole folio of tickets and a gold JIB card, but wanted someone to show him how to make off a MICC pot, well there you go! (in fairness he's got to learn somewhere and I'm all for passing on knowledge)

    Add to that the commercial in house factory sparks, the theatre electricians, film set gaffers, control and BMS specialists, fire alarm chaps and the bloke from the local appliance shop who will fit your new cooker - its a very broad church, so they just go with skilled / competent, and don't pin down qualifications, because its a constantly evolving picture and the right tickets for one job are wrong for the next.
     

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